1955 SEMINAR DISCUSSION 277 effect of the ion exchangers results almost exclusively from adsorption of odoriferous substances onto the ion exchangers. EmL G. KLARMANN (Lehn & Fink Products Corp., New York, N.Y.) (1) Concerning the relationship between protein precipitation and antiperspirant action: The capacity for protein precipitation is not the sole basis of the anti- perspirant mechanism. The current controversy should not revolve around the assertion or negation of any true antiperspirant effect which, in fact, appears to be a matter of degree. Dr. Shelley's experiments indi- cate a possibility of complete anhidrosis, probably by poral occlusion. The experiments of Dr. Sulzberger and his associates show that aluminum sulfate creams produce no such closure, but that they cause reduction of the perspiratory flow which is attributed to certain changes in the sweat duct. The two factors are not considered to be mutually exclusive. It is conceivable that one might obtain some single effect or a combination of effects depending upon the type and concentration of the aluminum salt, the duration of contact, the frequency of application, etc. (2) While not a proponent of chlorophyll, I would like to ask why this substance could not change the composition of apocrine sweat so as to pre- vent malodorous decomposition by bacteria. Sodium copper chlorophyllin is bacteriostatic therefore, if brought in direct contact with apocrine sweat under the proper conditions, it will most likely prevent its bacterial decomposition. However, the required concentration of the bacteriostatic substance is so high that 12nder normal conditions of usage, one would produce discoloration of the skin and of the garment touching it. (3) If chlorophyllin is taken internally, why could it not act on metab- olites so that the bacteria could not produce an odor? Reference was made to the deodorization by chlorophyllin of fecal mat- ter. Here the presumption is that if the chlorophyllin is not broken down while passing through the gastro-intestinal canal, it will maintain a con- tinuous inhibitory contact with material of potential decomposition, thereby reducing the intensity of malodor. However, in the case of apo- crine sweating, there is no reason to believe that following oral ingestion of chlorophyllin direct absorption will take place from the gastro-intestinal tract in such a manner as to make something appear in the apocrine sweat, unless that "something" enters circulation first it has never been demon- strated that either chlorophyllin, or any antibacterial conversion or degra- dation product of it, passes into circulation,

278 JOURNAL OF THE SOCIETY OF COSMETIC CHEMISTS (4) With reference to the electrical potential difference between the proximal and the open end of the eccrine gland duct, is it not possible that the cation of any metal salt would have the same effect as the cationic quaternary ammonium compounds ? A cationic compound of the type of benzalkonium chloride has specific surface activity, and its electropositive character tends to neutralize the electro-negative charge at the ostium, thereby counteracting the tendency of the positively charged sweat to flow outward. It was pointed out that an effect similar to that of benzalkonium chloride can be produced by solu- tions of certain electrolytes from the positive end of the Hofmeister series, such as lithium iodide at the same time, other iodides are less effective. Thus, not all cations should be regarded as being equivalent to a cationic surfactant in this respect. Another point to be considered, is the antagonizing effect of the anion in other words, with a given cation, the sulfate may do one thing while the thiocyanate may do another. As to the comments made by Mr. Fredell and Dr. Herrmann, I am glad to note their observation to the effect that aluminum salt based antiperspirants in cream vehicles prepared with anionic emulsifiers showed, initially at least, a pro- vocative rather than a suppressive effect upon the flow of perspiration, but that no such effect was obtained with aqueous solutions. All this fits in with the postulate as to the existence of an electrophysiologic potential along the sweat duct. FRANZ HERRMANN, M.D. (New York University Post-Graduate Medical School, New York, N.Y.) To question of sebum as a possible source of the odorous fatty acids: As Ikai has indicated, it was he and Nitta [Nagoya Med. y., 1, 217 (1953)] who by means of paper chromatography demonstrated a preponder- ance of unsaturated fatty acids with four to ten carbon atoms in sweat from osmidrotic axillae, in osmidrotic cerumen, and in osmidrotic smegma, whereas fatty acids with less than four carbons prevailed in the specimens from nonodorous axillae. (There was quite a series of subjects with osmidrosis in Japan, after all.) Although lipids are known to be excreted in the apocrine sweat, I think that also other skin lipids, such as those sup- plied by the sebaceous glands, may well be a source of the pertinent fatty acids. At this, the apocrine sweat may be effective by emulsifying sebum with special avidity and by furnishing a medium favorable for the growth of certain micro6rganisms. To Klarmann's remark on chlorophyllin and asparagus odor of urine: Kanof and I (New York University Skin and Cancer Unit) carried out trials with chlorophyllin given by mouth, or added to the urine, after inges-